From the discussion over at the vitally important The Vineyard of the Saker about the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight #MH17 on the Ukraine/Russian border. Just my small attempt to add to the voices countering the Mighty Wurlitzer blaring at 11.
karlof1 said...
The Outlaw US Empire has zero credibility, so anything coming from its Propaganda System is useless. Clearly, the cui bono answer is not Novo or Russia but the forces provoking them. Was the act of tactical or strategic significance? I would say neither: What could possibly change as a result?
It appears the international air safety authorities fucked-up big time by saying the airspace over a war zone was safe for civilian air transit. I imagine Outlaw US Empire CIA knows what Russia knows regarding the responsible party. And the immediacy of the Propaganda System's narrative and website entries prove the readiness of at least a contingency plan.
If it's a psy-op, who's it aimed at?
The Big Picture: The Outlaw US Empire is fighting very hard to maintain its unipolar status, which is crumbling under the constant assault by BRICS and other blocs--G20, Non-aligned Movement, etc. Particularly crucial is the dollar's status--bankruptcy will result if/when it's toppled from its lofty, undeserved status. In other words, the Third World War has already begun, and has been ongoing for at least several years, but has now escalated. If you read Putin's address to the BRICS conference, it should become clear why the Outlaw Empire is desperate as the only tools it has remaining are weapons of war.
The assault by Putin and the BRICS will not cease; indeed, it will escalate. The Outlaw Empire has two choices: It can continue to contest the assault and lose with a very hard fall being the result. Or it can rollback its Empire and use diplomacy to try and integrate its global financial apparat with the newly emerging paradigm and thus engineer a soft fall. So far, the first choice is being followed.
Are the Imperial Elite willing to give up their position by further escalation of the war, for that's what's included in a hard fall? What will it take for them to realize they cannot win? Or is their hubris so out-of-control that they cannot even conceive of losing?
For the world to become a better place, the Outlaw Empire must be destroyed and be rendered incapable of doing the same harm again. This means 100% regime and institutions change, new constitution, and the wholesale devolution of its corporate conglomerates. The USA public has two choices here: Do it yourselves; Have it done for you. Unfortunately, I think the latter will be the only way as the conditions don't exist for the rise of a Novomerica.
17 July, 2014 23:10
Larchmonter445 said...
This is another attempt to play a parallel game off the battlefield where the Ukies are losing badly.
The Militia has to keep fighting, destroying the Ukies.
This is a distraction.
Putin will have to deal with the fallout.
He just landed, so it was perfectly planned.
For all the factors to come together by serendipity to match Putin's return, the prior grounding of the Ukie AF, a plane from Malaysia off course by 200 miles, and missiles reaching 30,000 feet it seems to be too much.
For the Ukies to have shot it down, what did they think it was up there? A militia plane?
This is Odessa II, ruthless wasting of human life.
The militia could see it up there coming there way only on radar. Where's that radar? The tracking radar range on the BUK is 20-50 miles. The plane was flying at 500 mph. The militia had about five minutes to scan all the skies and all the altitudes and lock on. And why? What did they think was up there that high? A cargo plane would have to come down much lower. Why shoot up there?
I suspect that this is less and less likely to be the militia the more you look at the technical limitations of the situation, even if they have an operational BUK.
What the Hegemon gets is a ceasefire, an international crime branding the militia terrorists forever, more shit thrown on Russian and more shit thrown on Putin forever.
That's what's at stake in the black boxes.
The militia bragged of a shoot down an hour an half earlier. They better come up with the wreckage of a cargo plane.
I warned earlier that Strelkov is on social media too much. Twitter is no place to give SitReps.
17 July, 2014 23:11
Kathie Parker said...
Unfortunately I don't have the time now to go through all the comments so I hope it hasn't already been posted, but I found a very interesting tidbit on http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/
It mentions the fact that according to the people who were tasked with collecting the bodies from the wreckage site some of them were not "fresh" at all and were "completely bloodless". It appears they may have been dead prior to the plane crash. Also there seems to have been large medical supplies on board.
I realize that it's way too early to draw any conclusions and we have to take everything that hasn't been officially confirmed with a healthy pinch of salt, but still this information just adds to my feelings of uneasiness. It all seems too convoluted and just plain weird. Nothing is the way it seems and it just stinks of false flag machinations and coverups.
My only hope is that no ceasefire or truce, even temporary, will be accepted by the Novorussians, because any Ukrainian presence at the scene of the crash - either for "assisting" or for investigative purposes - will turn out to be a complete disaster for any objective investigative efforts.
If any Ukrainian representatives are allowed too close an access, they'll certainly launch into a full-scale cover-your-ass mode. Either that or they'll muddy the water just enough to allow their Western masters to portray unequivocally Russia and the "terrorists" of the East as the culprits.
18 July, 2014 11:27
Anonymous said...
Hi I am Dutch. "Ik ben een Nederlander" and no I did not use google translate.
Let me give you my emotional take on this terrible event.
It doesnt matter that Dutch & Malaysian people were murdered as the Nationality should not matter.
Murder is murder and as far as I am concerned the murderous idiots in Kiev started this one.
This started when Kiev started bombing Civilians in Luhansk with their airforce.
So if Pro Russian Miliamen fired a rocket somehow that hit that airplane full of our countrymen it was because Kiev started using an air force hell bent on bombing civilians & people have a right to defend themselves.
However to Malaysian Airlines Management and any other idiots flying airplanes over war torn areas were the air forces is bombing civilians.
There is something really mentally unstable about airlines insisting on flying over war torn areas.
As a Dutch. I blame Kiev & Malaysian airlines. Ill never ever fly with that idiotic mismanaged airline again.
To me the Pro Eastern Ukrainians are simply trying to defend themselves from genocidal maniacs from Kiev.
My heart goes out to families who lost loved ones because the US wants & needs a new war.
18 July, 2014 14:06
Anonymous said...
I know that Saker suggested that we keep an open mind about this "mishap"...However, I just can't ignore the undeniable suspiciousness of the timing and the convenience of this crash itself to suit the goals of the Kiev's/Washington ZioNazis.
The Ukies were getting defeated loud and clear. They desperately needed something that would redirect people's attention away from Poroshenko's disastrous ethnic cleansing of Novorussians and the Israelis invasion of Gaza. Plus, it would allow the ukies to be resupplied and regrouped. Not to mention another "great" reason for the Washington to blame Russia for its own misdeeds. Kind of too classic, too much in the spirit of CIA/MOSSAD modus operandi.
18 July, 2014 14:13
Larchmonter445 said...
Andrew,
RE: reports from civilians and their videos about the AN26 shoot down. We don't even know if the video was not from the Monday shoot down. Without timestamps on the videos, this stuff is all ambiguous.
We are looking at tree branches, clouds, smoke, angles of sun, blue versus gray skies, et al.
I said from the get go that the news coverage is weak. Valiant semi-pro level coverage that suffices to document dead bodies and building damage, but useless forensics without possession of original camera material in hand.
I've done film forensics in my past life in the industry and debunked famous "facts". But you have to have "original" material in hand.
We have a woman on video talking about her son telling us there were fighters with the falling jet.
This got posted on Gleb's authoritative site. Mistake to take this as a "source".
Eyewitnesses are notoriously inaccurate. This is falling bodies hitting their front or back yards. They hear multiple explosions up in the sky. Was one of those an echo?
For people in such stressful situations and then an event cascading atop their heads and all around, we have to be careful of the "facts".
I like the ballistics of the plane falling directly down when "hit", and then calculating from "where" and, thus, "who" could have fired a missile.
But, I'm betting the militia BUK didn't do it. Who is the expert who could run that thing? It only had its own internal radar for tracking and that is limited range.
Or, was the plane not at 30,000 feet? Was it much lower and hit by something else?
We do not have the basic facts of the flight yet.
We think we have something solid, but each point of fact is disputable. If we were sitting around a table and discussing this, each of us could dismantle the other's case easily.
Logic is not in operation yet. Logic requires facts.
Here, we want it to be an engineered CIA job.
Elsewhere, they want Putin's head on a platter.
I know NATO wants to get in. This event makes it easier to sell the viability of a covert version of NATO to be sent into the battlefield. I suspect some new high tech battalions to appear. We will be told they trained for months in Poland. It will be NATO expert troops in Kiev drag.
The Ukies are losing. Neo-cons and warmongers will do anything to keep Russia in deep destabilization. America loves enemies. It has its old one back. Facts don't matter. Events do.
Escalation of warfare by Kiev is just beginning. NATO will give them heavier missiles and small bombers. Nothing is off the boards in this one.
The Hegemon only has the Ukraine and it is on the brink of collapse.
The West will manufacture whatever events it needs to turn the tide. This was the beginning.
18 July, 2014 16:21
Anonymous said...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j?page=1
Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet
"Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?" The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.
It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone. "
18 July, 2014 17:22
The reporting has all the hallmarks of 911 reporting, where the "target" was named and convicted on DAY ONE. THAT is the biggest indicator that this was indeed a false flag.
Addendum. In a post a few days later Saker spells out the question of cui bono:
Cui bono?
Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko's murderous policies - suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised "surprise" turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for ""protection" from their "aggressive and threatening neighbor". Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta.
There's also these two important articles.
First, from Pepe Escobar:
So who profits?
The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.
As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off - especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass; and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.
And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity. [Ed: Not to mention the WMD-Iraq/torturegood allstars Bush II, Cheney, Yoo, Bybee, Gonzales, et al. How dare they! No wonder Malaysia Airlines is the airline victim of choice for the Empire's false flag ops!]
Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, Dick Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work. As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.
(The comments at Pepe's article contain some good examples of really stupid and transparent NSA media trolls trying to drown out Pepe's intelligent and thoughtful article.)
Second, from Mike Whitney:
Can you see what’s going on? Washington doesn’t care about the facts. What matters to Obama and Co. is getting the Europeans on board (“ratcheting up pressure within Europe”) so they can gin up the sanctions, shut off Russian gas, deprive Putin of a vital source of revenue, and set up shop (NATO bases) in Eurasia.” Whether US Intel agencies were involved in the missile attack or not doesn’t change the fact that Washington clearly benefits from the tragedy.
...
Clearly, the Obama team see this as an opportunity to do a number on Putin, so they could be tempted to use fake evidence like the grainy photos that popped up in the New York Times some months ago that were supposed to prove that Russian military experts were secretly directing the rebellion in east Ukraine. (The photos were fake.) If they try a stunt like that this time around, Putin will be ready for them. And, of course, if he has solid proof that the plane was blown up by Poroshenko’s henchmen, then there could be hell to pay. In fact, it might just bring Obama’s proxy war to a screeching halt.
I must say, this is the most transparent and inept attempt at a psyop false flag I've seen among a growing spate of recent ones. Obama and the deep guvmint behind the scenes are getting increasingly desperate, which is making them increasingly stupid.
Next question. How was it downed?
Addendum 2: In sum...
1)
Anonymous said...
He [Putin, in opening remarks at a Russian Security Council meeting] also stated that he will hunt down traitors within Russia..in the gov't or not...and made it everyone's duty to turn in those who would betray Russia..they too will be punished if they knew but keep their mouths shut. He also stated he will be proactive militarily to transgressions on the borders, and has increased the readiness level and training missions to prepare for aggression. He is mad and means business.
The truth is out and all over Russian TV. BUK would blow the plane to pieces and you would not have the debris field so small. An AtoA missile(s) were launched which disabled the plane and it crashed largely in one piece. I linked to posts showing rod damage to the left wing a few days ago...typical damage from AtoA..and they showed the cockpit sprayed on the left side with holes. The attack was aided by changing the airliner's course and altitude. The BUKs in Donetsk were backup and were quickly moved out afterwards. [em mine]
23 July, 2014 03:17
2)
Vlad said...
Along with Obama, Kerry, Powers, US intelligence has to worry about the loose cannons running Kiev. The Empire may have given the green light on this false flag but it was run by the Ukrainians and they screwed up. And this is just the beginning.
23 July, 2014 05:27
Addendum 3: Aftermath...
Larchmonter445 said...
Today's early reports by Colonel Cassad or whoever on Politikus seems to be another very mixed bag.
Victories at some locations, no time and place or video. Large formation attacks by Ukies at another, very dire location for connecting road to Russia and linking the two regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.
And we can suppose things will be like this for some time.
But worst of all is the Ukie violation of the ceasefire zone (absolutely no surprise. They have never honored any deal, kept their word with anyone about anything. From Maidan onward they are liars, bandits, thieves and mass murderers, and why anyone thinks they would keep a bargain is mystifying).
But this attack at Torez is a drive to the crash site.
The whole idea is to destroy the plane's remnant parts so no reconstruction for investigation is possible. They would bomb it directly if need be, but "accidental" barrages hitting it would be a second choice, and then actual possession for future manipulation is the last choice.
The International delay of 5-6 days of getting there gave Kiev time to bombard Donetsk train station, highways and now Torez itself.
And the minimal crew of all the nations involved of their experts (only nine on the ground for the last few days) shows how they are all part of the deal to cover Ukie ass in this disaster.
None of the nations has even one testicle to stand up for the truth. They are all complicit in the coverup. Accessories after the fact.
300 dead in one fell swoop. That leaves them an open door to start really killing people. And they get to blame the militia and Putin.
27 July, 2014 14:11
